1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Evola's "Order of the Iron Wreath" and the founding of orders

Discussion in 'Traditional Activism' started by Olavsson, 25 July 2014.

  1. Hrogar

    Hrogar Senior Member

    Any order/gang/männerbund has to start with at least two people willing to be themselves a unity of thought & action. This is the basis of any meaningful spiritual path of a individual person as well as of a group. Such men are few and far between these days. And you never know if you yourself have the material until you put yourself to the test in critical situations. This is the essence. Pushing yourself and each other and testing it. There is no escape from between the hammer and anvil for those who want to rise above themselves and the masses.

    And ultimately we need to face the question of our willingness to give everything for our spiritual path. You don't just decide to become brave one day. You build it up through hard work, discipline and by breaking and reforging yourself. But no matter how large or small scale we think, we must always have our (mind's) eye on the northern horizon. That's the only way forward, through our willingness to sacrifice ourself to ourself.
    High ambitions are not a problem if we are willing to do what it takes. But right there usually lies a major challenge for each of us. And as a consolation, it has never been any different. :)
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. ...AND they need to be physically close together and see each other often. Online stuff is all well and good, but it will never be as deep as face to face relationships.

    I strongly support this concept.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Olavsson

    Olavsson First Lieutenant Staff Member
    1. Lumine Boreali Gentlemen's Club
    2. Neoplatonism

    Thanks for some good input, people.

    Several of us are now continuing this discussion in private. If anything of what you have read in this thread thus far interests you (not only on an intellectual level), then send me a private message and we'll see what we can do.
  4. Germanicus

    Germanicus Recruit

    Very pleased to see this thread. I have been discussing with associates the need for such an initiative for over a year, starting as you did, Olavsson, from the point of reviewing Evola's outline. That outline is a bit flawed, but I agree very much with your initial assessment of how it should be done.
  5. LN

    LN Member

    The creation of an Order is something of a fixture in my thoughts on all things traditional.
  6. David Ravel

    David Ravel Senior Member

    Maybe I am late to the party, but I discovered this thread thanks to the commentary by LN. I will offer here my thoughts :


    Initiation is a sacred process that demands a threefold ritual process universally recognized (for more information, see Victor Turner or Arthur Van Gennep) :

    1) A preliminal state where the subject is extracted from his normal existence
    2) A liminal state where the different hardship and ordeals are taken which culminate in the passing of Knowledge
    3) A post liminal state where the subject is accepted in his new social or anthropological form within a group

    It is important to know this, because the actual process needs to be done by an elder, or by the actual order/group of initiation itself. What I am trying to say is that if you ''create'' an order, that order will therefore exist out of nothing, and you will have to initiate yourself between yourselves, which contradict the ''initiation from above'' (that can be declined in two forms : a) from above in Tradition, i.e. the ancient member or the elders of the group b) from above beyond time and space, i.e. a sacred intervention or hierophany which grants the initiation its worth). I'm not saying you cannot do it (as even Crodreanu, from what I remember, didn't do either), but it is something you must think about. In other words, you do not ''create'' an order, you ''form'' it: the stuff is there, it just need ''order'' to work. What I mean by that is you should strive to create a group first, then found an order if need and possibility are, not the other way around.


    You speak of warrior-ascetics. I do not want to sound overly harsh, so consider the following in a neutral tone. How can you speak of warrior-ascetic if you are neither warrior nor ascetic ? I am not saying you aren't, I am genuily asking the question. Have any of you or the people that wants to form your group been in the military ? In paramilitary ? Special forces or police ? Fought at high level martial arts ? Been in a gang and therefore, lots of real fight ? Of course warriorship is not only about figthing experience, since Samurai demonstred it by following a strict code in a time of peace. But they had a code, and their entire existence was following that code: they lived like warrior every single minute of their lives, not just 2-3h of martial arts per week. An in a world like ours, were wars around the world are so easy (they are recruiting both in and against Isis, both in and against Ukrainia), and that alot of folks are veterans (especially in Nato countries), if you neither have a complete warrior existence (ex: Samourai) nor fighting experience (ex: military vet), the title ''warrior'' is just this, a title. Think in a New Realism way, as exposed by Evola in Riding the Tiger, without fancy or anything : if you can't fight, if you haven't fought, if you aren't exposed to figthing every second of your life, thinking about death and what it means, it is very difficult or actually impossible to be a warrior. That means that an warrior order based on non-warrior will not succeed, it will fall short. Regarding my first point : how can you even initiate a warrior if you are not a warrior yourself ?

    You speak of asceticism, and I could go on in the same direction to ask you this : what does it mean ? How can you be an order of warrior-ascetic if your member are neither of those ? Of course, in normal time, an order would have had neophytes, people have neither but wanting to learn both. With times, they could be trained, pass their initiation, become warrior-ascetics and learn the myteries of the order in their sacred forms. But as I said, you do not have that privilege, and neither do I, or anyone in Europe/North America.

    I could go on on other subject, and I do not want to sound overly critical : there is some very positive ideas in your text, and some of them I am very pleased of seeing (especially regarding the following of an exoteric path, Christianity, for the sake of continuity and community). But I think you are going in a direction that will end in seeing your project fail, not work. If you aim for an order right now, without warriorship, without complete asceticism and without a spiritual guide to at least act as foundational initiation or temporary/virtual one, it will fail at least on the Sacred Order plane; it may work on as ''martial arts community'', or ''mannerbund'', but not as a Sacred Order. What I think you should do, is take this as your starting point : form a group (see Handbook of Tradition Living that you already quoted), be it on the base of martial arts, of asceticism, of a physical community, of paramilitary action, etc. and from there you will form a bound. That bound will be the basis of the formation of the order in the future: when things are right, when stars are aligned, you will be presented with a moment in time and space which transcends it and offer you the possibility of moving one step foward and create an Order, not just a group pretending to be one. That moment may be attached to external events (such as a war, the consecration of your group by a religious authority, etc.) or internal one (see my point on hierophany further up): but it will open up new opportunity for you to actually have a mythical foundation of the order. I could explain that in more detail if anything is important to you.

    Good luck.

    PS: You say you disagree on some aspects with Evola regarding the text on the Order. Which ones ?
    • Like Like x 1
    • Superb Superb x 1
  7. Thank you, David, for expressing your views on the matter, which are very similar to my own. I have abstained from involving myself in this project, because I do not believe that even a small part of what is required for such lofty goals is available to us.
    What I am personally trying to do, seeing as I am neither warrior, ascetic or priest, is to build up a social conservative/reactionary network within the city where I am living (Sweden's second largest, which means that it's quite small). My focus will be to try to activate as many good people as possible in positive cultural activities. This is something that works, and I've already made some progress - I think it might be a good idea for other people on the forum to do similar things, and if successful, we could have meetings between the groups which could possibly lead to further developments if the right people are involved.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. PrinceRomanicus

    PrinceRomanicus Senior Member

    If this project is still alive I would like to recommend one thing, I might get slammed for "Populism" or "Demagoguery" but you can start recruitment of this Order in your neighborhoods by turning people into a non-member associate. Imagine this, people who do not fit the Order's physical and spiritual requirements can still work with it as associates who do whatever the order tells them. These associates can be men or women of any faith who is sympathetic to the Order and is even a good start for potentially finding worthy men of the Order itself.

    Target simple conservative and nationalist political organizations and simply bring them closer to a real traditionalism by merely mingling with them. This way the Order has both the difficulties of the warrior-ascetic for its members and the ease of a political organization, a warrior needs his attendant does he not? It is just like during the age of the Holy Roman Empire in the Middle Ages, some Monasteries where given Imperial Immediacy becoming de facto sovereign states known as Imperial Abbeys. The Abbot became a Prince-Abbot and the monks essentially ruled the territory. There were still commoners, artisans, merchants, and farmers living on the grounds of the Imperial Abbey. Same basic logic, you can have your Order of warrior-ascetic elites and your mass of loyal commoner associates.
    More Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Imperial_abbeys
    Improving your charisma and rhetoric should also count as self-improvement.

    From there you can upgrade into separatist communities of Traditionalist. Order members can form the government of these new communities with the associates of the Order becoming regular subjects. There a new state has been born. I can imagine the Order would have regional branches similar to how historical military orders had "Commanderies" as their local fiefs ruled by a Commander.
    More Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commandry
    The Order itself should strive to be sovereign and separate from the modern world with autonomous Commanderies with their local Order members ruling over the many associates. Look at the Sovereign Military Order of Malta or the State of the Teutonic Order as inspirations.
    Malta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Malta_under_the_Order_of_Saint_John
    Teutonic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_the_Teutonic_Order
    If you feel your government is illegitimate because there is no divinely appointed Monarch ruling it, just declare the Commandery Governments as a semi-permanent interregnum Regency until the day God awakens the invisible Emperor.

    I have a tendency of planning things from the very beginnings to absolute long term because why not.
    Last edited: 15 June 2017
    • Superb Superb x 1