Discussion in 'Religion & Spirituality' started by Myrddin, 4 December 2016.

  1. Myrddin

    Myrddin Senior Member

    Apologies if this thread has been done before. Was interested in seeing where this topic would lead
  2. I'll bite.

    I'm no fan of the Christian Mod, but whose to say that if the tables were turned the Mytharians (?) wouldn't have eventually attached the Christian church for treading upon their own 'noble rights'? Killing people who do not share your values is certainly not unique to Christianity or Democracy. In many regards religion is merely an excuse for one King, Nation, or Organization, to go to war with another for unspoken reasons such as land, resources, slaves, et al. I would ask you also for your thoughts pertaining to Esoteric Christianity, and in the specific context of the possibility of Mythraism having defeated Christianity historically. In what manner do you see Mythraism maintaining its core or initial values over centuries, and what would our world look like right now? In the event that a "successful" supposedly democratic Mythraism went the way of our current Christianity, what do you suppose the modern Mytharian dogma would look like, and how do you suppose that would have shaped our modern paradigm?

    This doesn't seem to me very far fetched whatsoever. To put it a bit more on the nose, Freemasonry just isn't special in that regard. I'd go so far as to say that Mythras remains alive in elements of Christianity. I cannot help to echo "Mother, Maiden, and Crone," when I see or hear "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,". The blood of Substitution is the menstrual blood (squatting over a creek if your ONA!). Either way I approach the mystery traditions in aggregate rather than as individual entities or civilizations. And returning for a moment to Freemasonry, as with all systems, there are those who darken by building the wall, and those who brighten by tearing it down. Oddly enough they both claim the same title. All of these systems are pulling on several predated systems, or at least it seems to me.

    These two sentences fully explain why the Christian element of the overall Magian Dialectic could not allow Mythraism to exist, much less thrive. It was their explicit goal to destroy the spiritual consciousness of, and the conscious evolution of, society at large. This would not be possible with with happy little mystery traditions running around enlightening people and waking them up to the psychological slavery slowly coiling around them. There must be only one god, that god must be male in order to destroy the Sacred Feminine, that god must be external, and that god must be feared rather than praised. This destruction of the foundations of genuine Paganism is certainly noticeable in that two primary modes of human thought occurred in (i) the shift away from the seasonal female goddesses of fertility and the assumption of plenitude, to (ii) the implementation of primarily male gods of war and territory and the assumption of scarcity. Nomadic lifestyles were bastardized and propagandized such that adherence to farming on behalf of the State gave rise to systems of taxation, and on and on. I highly recommend Christopher Ryans book "Sex at Dawn". Any system advocating a numinous and internal 'personal responsibility' had to be destroyed by the early Christians in order to re-engineer responsibility as something that obligated one to the State rather than the Self. The state also had to own god/religion rather than allowing the people to serve the Sacred Feminine which is independent of the Sacred Masculines acceptance of logical and structured systems. All modern religions and politics are all designed to prevent the alchemical romance which leads to personal dominion.
    Last edited by a moderator: 4 December 2016
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  3. Myrddin

    Myrddin Senior Member

  4. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    Mithraism survives in Sufism once one equivocates the Great Bull with the nafs or lower self. The Roman tauroctony imagery itself is pan-IE appearing on the Gundestrup cauldron and the Seal of Shaushtatar. But of interest here is the specific symbolism from Ostia of a bull's cloven hind foot weighing down a soldier's helmet. The bull represents something that weighs down upon the Roman.

    The Grail (here of Jamshid) in Rome lost its former Persian significance. For the Persians the scrying vessel continues its central importance unto the present. Like the Christian grail was both a cup and a platter it is in Persia also a 'golden tray' (a Persian kenning for the solar disc). It is in Persia known as a 'bull vessel' as it contained formerly both wine and blood (ie. of the bull).

    In Persia Mithras has become feminine Mitra likened to a maiden; the same inexplicably occurred in Central & East Asia where he became absorbed into Buddhism. The fair Maiden is in mystical terms a gazelle and as cup-bearer is described as 'moon-faced'. As such we see the European Grail tradition in its fully developed form is attributable either to the Migration Age or to the Crusades, not to the Romans; at least some touches such as the peacock crown are clearly Crusade-era. The Maiden as a cup-bearer is in the Grail traditions of Europe alongside the injured king who may be read simultaneously (by design) as Christ, Satan and man. To be 'injured in the thigh' is a reference to Persianate (especially Zaza) notions of Shaytan as similarly injured in his punishment.

    It is particularly worthy of note that the final, most developed interpretation of the Grail tradition emerged under Frederick II, the Ghibelline ruler who loved the Moslems in his kingdom. In Palestine and Syria dual religious loyalties were common and the Pope had to condemn this; Frederick certainly took effort to detach the Sicilian clergy from the see of Rome and to set up a national or imperial church in which he was head.

    The combination of a cup and a cross in Western Europe comes from the Migration period and particularly the Burgundians who came under steppe influence; a similar symbolism exists in Armenia under Arrani influence.
    Last edited: 24 December 2016
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  5. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    Sex at Dawn by the way is myth-spinning rubbish. Human physiology/amatomy and interpersonal behaviours indicate human ancestors were big on pair bonding compared to other great apes. Monogamy would not have been strict and some degree of polygyny and polyandry was practiced as in modern hunter gatherers like the Ache - right down history to the Greeks, Celts and Indians - but it was nothing like modern polyamory and the like. People forget you can meet living hunter gatherers and see what our ancestors were like. Sex is actually seen as a labour duty in modern hunter gatherer groups. Homosexuality in particular was not present as either behaviour or orientation. Moderns would not find the sex life of African Pygmies liberating.

    There is no need for crap such as Sex at Dawn to 'deconstruct' family values garbage. Go to any period in history there were brothels and provisions for illegitimate children. Yes this includes the Christian past when the church was a lot stricter and had a lot more power in Europe's social life. Around the world there were always costs to curtail excessive extramarital and premarital sex, homosexuality, abortion et cetera. Whorehouses are part of a traditional culture because they help curtail harmful sexual urges. A Pleistocene free-for-all on the other hand is just a myth like the Neolithic matriarchies.

    Of course people believe in these things because of long standing ideas of a Golden Age without men's laws, or a chthonic earth-based period in human history. Old, traditional ideas tinge and underlie popular notions giving them a sort-of religious feel of their own.

    Ultimately different varieties of sex and procreative mores share a common foundation, deconstructionists overlook this to attack the Christian West but it backfires on them when other cultures (especially Islamic cultures) immigrate and bring sane patriarchy with them.
    Last edited: 12 December 2016
  6. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    I don't know how this thread got onto sex matters. But public discourse about sex is proof kyriarchy never worked. Discourse is framed between ridiculous extremes no one in real life seems to believe.

    Then the narratives failed to reflect a changing society despite attempts to affect hearts and minds. Pro-choice has always been connected to sexual liberation since the 1970s, no? Well for years now the youth have become more anti-abortion despite desensitisation to everything from gays to polyamory to lolicon paedophile drawings. (All round a bit like Crowley would have liked? Or even people like Desmond Morris in the 60s and 70s?) Not that desensitisation means more actual sex. People have less sex than ever; they are not sex-positive in that sense. All those assets planted to spin narratives completely failed in the long term to change public hearts and minds. Their engineering failed, their predictions were wrong.

    Now think of the obvious class differences in what constitutes acceptable sex and these have intensified worse than ever since the mid-20th century. The sort of people who promote interracial mixing and homosexuality the most are most critical of early sex/marriage/motherhood. Again: people who have sex earlier are the ones who have more sex and outside of marriage, this is the total opposite of the sex positive narrative and also the moral puritan types causing a nuisance for the alt-right, who think you can understand things like adultery or statutory 'rape' in the way you might talk about homosexuality.

    It makes you wonder about the theories that underlie kyriarchy. Many people noticed that around the same time organizations like the CIA began to push social liberalism against the USSR they began to draw upon behaviourist theories that were already known false at the time they became popular. Do you believe a cockerel and a hen are socially constructed to be different by chicken society? Or that a chimp would be begin to talk if it was raised in a human family? These daft ideas were part of the same behaviourist discourse that led to overconfidence in the ability to win over hearts and minds as seen in much deradicalisation nonsense today. Such theories because they promised a scientific basis for shaping opinions and created overconfidence and arrogance. In retrospect intelligence services like many people fell for trendy pseudoscientific theories and we see the results in the irrelevance of mainstream media messages. All their methods did was isolate elites from reality and fossilise them.
    Last edited: 12 December 2016
  7. Myrddin

    Myrddin Senior Member

  8. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    Rumi and Sohravardi are not omly Aryan by culture but are heirs to Classical and Old Persian heritage and although they were Moslem they are also entirely suitable for Europeans to read, much as Wolfram von Eschenbach who himself understood Sufi concepts that he presented in his writing which therfore contain ancient Aryan wisdom. (Had he written in Anatolia or Kurdistan he would be recognised instantly as a Shayt√Ęnparast; a Sufi who celebrates Shaytan's monotheistic declaration.) Of course exoteric Islam itself cannot be understood without the Persian (Mazdakite) element. For unknown reasons in the Persianate tradition the cup bearer became female and this was transmitted to Eschenbach, the cup bearer was initially Mithras and the Christian/Yezidi Grail was initially the Cup (or Bowl) of Jamshid.

    1. Cauldron is pan-IE
    2. Shift from a cauldron to a cup is Iranic/steppe and is introduced west in the migration age (ie. Oss. Nartamongæ) in connection with a pre-Christian cross symbol
    3. In the cultural syncretism of the Crusade period Christian 'Sufism' was brought to Europe under intellectual patronage
    Last edited: 24 December 2016
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  9. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    No one has properly explained the westward transmission of Arthuriana either. The origins of most of the canon are clearly Persian for chronological reasons though there are also the Classical elements expanded upon by Anderson. Even the Alanic Nart sagas do not for example contain a Fisher King or a wasteland, though there is a sort-of Graal without Christian meanings (and both motifs mentioned as missing, do have parallels in the Caaucasus). Details such as the absence of hallows (sacred objects) accompanying the Graal mark the Ossetic tradition as conservative rather than derivative. Arthurian canon developed over centuries initially out of Migration Age syncretism in Gaul; though Arthurian figures are present in Celtic lore the canon as we know it is more French than British. In its most developed form the Arthurian tradition becomes Sufi: this is clear to anyone who has studied Sufism.

    More problematic than a Sufi or even Parsee origin for the European Graal stories is the supposed Manichean element as it implies Cathars were Manicheans. In fact their form of dualism was distinct and seemingly influenced by Tengrism. However, Catharism has been demonstrated to be Bogomilism migrating west and to have arrived in Catholic monasteries out of the east (it was a reform movement not a separate religion). In the melting pot north of the Moors, ideas from Byzance and the Moslem world became fused till the vile Albigensian Crusade. After the crushing of the Cathars and supression of heretics such as Eickhardt calls for reform among the Catholics took the form of Protestant sectarianism. But in the rich medieval culture of the Languedoc it is hard to separate Graal stories from the culture of troubadours; which itself has an Islamic parallel. Paradise lost.
    Last edited: 26 December 2016
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  10. Celtic Skogsra

    Celtic Skogsra Heroic Member

    Another note given the Fisher King has a peacock crown; the odd peacock angel symbolism in the same general area especially at Vals, where it is labelled as Pantasaron. But the imagery extends into Catalonia and northeastern Italy. Its old and mysterious and I wonder how it got there. People think of things like this and Templar-Assassin connections as some kind of conspiracy theory. In fact scholars do notice these things but its hard to draw a definite conclusion especially when one would require disparate knowledge bases. Peacocks are not native even in Iran and it was the Parthian House of Karen who popularised the symbolism more than anyone; the depiction at Vals is independant of the association of the peacock with Christ, Satan etc.
    Last edited: 26 December 2016
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