Questions for Pagans

Discussion in 'Paganism' started by Plantagenet, 21 November 2013.

  1. Plantagenet

    Plantagenet Heroic Member

    I've always been interested in classical and ancient paganism, but I don't know as much as I should about modern neo-paganism or how it is practiced on the ground. I'd like to know more from those who may either be practicing pagans or know more in depth about the topic, as well as express some concerns and questions I may have.

    1. Is your identification with paganism a conviction that was drawn from the truth of the doctrine or a religious inquiry, or is it primarily an ethnic/racial identification? If the former, what is it about paganism that you find to be representing what you believe to be objective truth?

    2. What are your metaphysical views (monism, polytheism, dualism, etc.) and what is the praxis of your tradition? From where do you derive your views and practices?

    3. It seems to me that religions come from God, either via transmission from the ancient Golden Age (Hinduism, classical paganism), via revelation (Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism), or via intuitive spiritual realization/awakening of a great founder (Buddhism, Platonism.) A tradition remains efficacious through a spiritual transmission across time (Apostolic succession, silsilah, dharma lineage, etc.) By what means can one validate neopaganism when it doesn't fulfill either of these categories due to the unfortunate breaking of tradition?

    4. In relation to number 3, is there a reason you would rather follow a neopagan path than, say, a Hindu path? The latter, though Indian, comes from the same Proto-Indo-European root, but unlike European paganism remains a living faith, which is why Savitri Devi, who as we know was a European racialist, became a Hindu for example. If finding a living tradition isn't of primary concern to you, why not try to revive a pagan tradition like Neoplatonism of which we know comparatively more, both in metaphysics and in practice (theurgy as described by Iamblichus for example), than ancient European paganism?

    5. Does it ever feel lacking to not have a living sacred artistic tradition, especially in regards to sacred music? What is the sacred music of neopaganism? I know there are many neopagan metal-heads, but obviously this doesn't count as a form of sacred music.

    Now, if my questions appear to be a critique masquerading as an inquiry, then all I can say is that truthfully that is not the case. I am just attempting to understand with an open mind what I currently don't understand about neopaganism and raise some concerns which may have already been aptly answered by some leading modern pagan figures I am unaware of. I look forward to any insights anyone may be able to provide.
     
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  2. I'll answer these questions, even though I'm not sure how fully I identify with Nordic paganism. It is the religious path that I feel best suits me, but I am not (yet) really a practising pagan. My issue is I find most exoteric aspects of religious belief hard to swallow, despite my wishes to embrace them.

    I would say it is a mixture of both, but primarily the latter. My primary reason for espousing Nordic paganism is ancestor worship. The obvious question is then, of course, "why not become a Christian?". It's a good question, and it's not that easy to answer. From the angle of ancestor worship, it can be maintained that the further back a tradition stretches the more valid it is and that Christianity was a forced religion which had no place among our ancestors. I think it is easier for us Scandinavians to reconnect to our ancient religion than for other European folks - folklore has been kept alive over the centuries, and we have had Christianity for a relatively short period when compared to other places. Christianity has not even struck through properly in all places, so I don't think that it can really be viewed as the primary tradition.
    But I also think Nordic paganism contains the set of values that I personally find to be both the most rationally and emotionally pleasing. I think the most important level is the emotional one, and I freely admit it. The stories of our pagan forefather's ways and deeds, of the Gods and their realms, is what makes my blood stir. It moves me to the bottom of my soul, and that is really the best way to explain it.

    Well, I guess that Nordic paganism is by its nature monistic and polytheistic, so that's decided. A strong focus on and reverence for nature and kin is central to me, and I don't really separate the ways of my ancestors from their beliefs (seeing as these ways declined with the coming of Christianity, I think this is fully logical). More personal values such as honour, strength, the heroic, truth, freedom and - perhaps surprising for some - a strong respect for the woman are all things that I connect to the ways of my ancient ancestors.
    I derive those views from the texts and descriptions of the ways of our forefathers that have survived, but also from the spiritual tradition which still exists in our common spirit even though it is not intellectually preserved.

    As I alluded to in my answer to the previous question, I still think the spiritual basis has been transmitted down to us through our ancestors. Christianity may have reigned for many years, but as I view it it simply did not manage to fully subvert our spirit - Christianity, or our spirit, or most likely both, moulded themselves as necessary and managed to get along for a while. That time is over, though.
    And if a religion is True, I don't think it necessarily needs to be transmitted through living practices. It can be found again, with the help of ancient documents.

    Well, I think I have already answered this, but the answer is the obvious one: because Hinduism (and other eastern ways) was not the way of our forefathers and I do not think that it is suited for our locale. There is much to learn, though, and perhaps some aspects of eastern religions can be adapted to European neopaganism; but I still think they are much too alien and different from our ancient ways to be applicable as wholesale concepts. (I think the same is true for Christianity as well, one could note).

    Not really, no, as I am not personally terribly moved by most sacred music from other religions. I think what I would count as the sacred music of Nordic paganism would be our folk music; even if most of it hasn't been handed down to us from a thousand years back (but the roots stretch that far), I think it contains the same concept of locally transmitted tradition. Something that has been transmitted down to us from before Christianity (possibly for thousands of years), though, is kulning: while it is not of religious nature, I think it authentically transmits some of the folk spirit of the north. Example:
    And then there is of course scared art in the form of viking ships, figures (many of religious nature), decorations and various objects of assorted nature.
     
    Last edited: 21 November 2013
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  3. Plantagenet

    Plantagenet Heroic Member

    Interesting, and I agree with you about Scandinavians being the ones longest connected to their paganism and also least connected to traditional Christianity. After all, most of Scandinavia ditched Catholicism for Protestantism after only having it for a few centuries, whereas places like Britain, France, and parts of Germany were Christianized for a much longer period.

    However, what I question is whether the folklore and mythology that we know of regarding Norse paganism is enough. As far as I am aware, we know little to nothing about any in depth philosophical views or what the esoteric interpretation of the various myths may have been, and we are in a similar position in regards to rituals and sacrifice, which were obviously central to the ancient pagans. While the values espoused in the pagan traditions are indeed heroic and admirable, I just wonder if a value system and set of mythological and folkloric beliefs are enough to constitute a true spiritual path.

    That certainly covers values, but does it really cover praxis? What I meant by my question is how can one transform themselves spiritually in modern paganism? Hindus practice various forms of yoga, Sufis have their dhikr and muraqaba practices alongside their following the exoteric Shariah, Orthodox Christians employ hesychastic prayer, and Tibetan Buddhists employs various forms of deity yoga to raise their consciousness. They all also have known rituals. It seems from my observation of all this is absent in neopaganism. The one means toward God we are aware of that the Germanic pagans practiced, i.e. dying through heroic struggle in battle, may still be possible but then again modern warfare isn't really chivalrous (machine vs man rather than man vs man.)

    And while we know that Norse paganism may have been similar to Hinduism with its polytheitic monism, I am not sure we know much about it aside from that very basic understanding, though I could be wrong. For example, do we know if the gods were seen as independently existing entities? Were the gods seen as aspects of our enlightened mind and not as actual entities? Were they seen as being immanent, transcendent, or both? Can humans commune with the gods, and if so how do they do so? And so on.

    Interesting. Do you have a more in depth understanding of how a spiritual tradition can be transmitted through blood alone or a link whereby I can read more? I never heard of that theory before.

    Also, based upon your response, do you feel that Christianity is inherently subversive? If such is the case, why should the Greeks, who are the Europeans who have been Christian the longest, be much more conservative, traditional, and anti-Marxist at the present moment than much of Scandinavia?

    Though it could be said that Hinduism, deriving as it does from the Vedas, which may date via oral traditional back to nearly 8000 BC or beyond (if one follows folks like Bal Gangadhar Tilak), represents the proto-Indo-European spiritual traditions, and therefore is in fact the way of our even more distant forefathers, despite currently existing in an Indian cultural form. As we know based upon Caesar's testimony and other Greco-Roman writers, the Celts at least maintained the doctrine of transmigration like the Hindus, so one wonders if the same was the case with the Germanic/Norse. The Hindus also have the same concept of a sacred warrior tradition that was maintained by the Norse. Then there is the famous story of Odin hanging himself on the tree to unveil knowledge of the runes, which points that some sort of ascetic practices were known to the Norse that reflect those of the Hindu sadhus and yogis.

    So I am not sure we can say that at their core the traditions are so very different. I think the primary difference, aside from the cultural aspect, is that Hinduism is a living tradition we know much more about, which is why I suggested it in the first place. That said, you didn't mention how you feel about Neoplatonism or other Greco-Roman pagan traditions which, while not Germanic, are European and we know much more about and are in a greater position to at least attempt to reconstruct, if that is possible.

    In any case, I hope to learn more about paganism as it is today and any further insights you or anyone else here may be able to provide. My other question is who are the main figures you look to? Guido von List I am aware of, but who else are the writers of neopaganism who I can look up to learn more?

    By the way, that kulning was quite beautiful. I heard something similar before but didn't know what it was called, so thanks for informing me of its name.
     
    Last edited: 21 November 2013
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  4. Olavsson

    Olavsson First Lieutenant Staff Member
    1. Lumine Boreali Gentlemen's Club
    2. Neoplatonism

    That's perfectly understandable. I myself feel a strong affinity with the Nordic/Germanic (and by extension, as defined by various approaches to comparative religion and mythology, also to other Indo-European/Aryan traditions) Weltanschauung, ethos, myths and symbolism, to the extent that 'Pagan' has sometimes been the closest I have come to define my orientation in terms of religion.

    But - because there is a but: Despite of that, I have at times asked myself questions related to those of yours, and do not in all cases have a definite answer. I might not be ideal person - pagan - to answer you, since I often wonder whether I do actually have a religion at all. And the information you seek seem in several instances to be linked exactly to the more exoteric aspects of what we could label religion, which is often strictly limited to one line of transmission and to one historical, ritual, textual (etc) manifestation.

    If my intent was to copy the exact religious practices of my distant pagan ancestors, that would indeed likely end up unauthentic, artificial, non-organic and lacking in the authority inherent in an unbroken, continuous and intact tradition. To join some modern Asatru organization and practice rituals out in the forest, drink mead and pretend we are Vikings would likely feel very unnatural to me, but the problem is that the same is for me true of all other religions that I could possibly join, being it some of the Christian churches (moreover, I have never discovered a Christian current that I do not disagree with when it comes to various theological aspects), Islam, the local Hindu sect etc.

    I see no such organized alternatives that deeply appeal to me; the option of organically being part of some organized tradition seems to be excluded. That leaves me with a personal and "individualistic" (I usually hate that word) path. I don't know to what extent I can really say that I am a Pagan, when taking this into consideration. To be authentically Pagan, one would have to be part of such a tradition on an organic basis.

    I am not an organically practicing Pagan in the same vein as my forefather, I am only Pagan insofar as I do believe that I share what would have to be their fundamental values and worldview (despite of me inevitably being conditioned to a not insignificant extent by the decadent times in which I live, as is the case with most of us), insofar as their spiritual symbolism, the nature of their gods as well as the attitude I can detect towards the questions of existence resonate with my soul.

    Does that make me a Pagan? In a sense, it perhaps does; not in the religious sense of following a tradition with all of the rituals and a myriad of other facets that it implies, perhaps, since I honestly can't say that I do at all, but more so when it comes to a philosophical and esoteric perspective, if that makes any sense. A modern man firmly devoted to the principles of Stoicism for instance, could broadly speaking be considered a Pagan according to the latter perspective, but not according to the former - whereas the ancient Stoics were Pagans in every sense of the word because they were organically integrated into a culture that was permeated by a direct Pagan heritage.

    Both of them. As a Nordic I always felt attracted to the symbols, myths and values of my ancient forefathers all since being a child. More than appearing as something I've adopted out of a rational decision, it seems like something inherent in my true inner being and character - the myths and symbolism and the meaning attached to them ring true on a deep level and inspire inner strength, calm and determination. I am more concerned with the practical effect it has on my being - how it partly contributes to forming a stable centre and compass for direction (simultaneously as it is closely linked to my racial origins) - than on whether it offers an unbroken tradition with elaborate metaphysical explanations for everything and a complex system of practice.

    The latter are obviously lacking, although some of it has survived in parts. I see myself as an eternal seeker of truth, however, and do not avoid looking for increased understanding or help towards spiritual ascesis/discipline elsewhere as well. To me that's not about creating a spiritual hodgepodge but about being open to truth wherever it is possible to find, and appropriating techniques and disciplines that are of practical use when it comes to forging the path I wish to tread. Whether such inspirations come directly from Pagan Scandinavia is of secondary importance to me, as long as they are in harmony with my orientation and form a natural synthesis rather than an incompatible syncretism. I guess that's where my esoteric orientation comes in. Of course I see the ancient Germanic tradition (what we know about it) as representing objective truth. But to me it does not have to be either/or, that if truth is present in the Germanic paganism, then the opposite must be the case for another separate tradition. With that said, one expression of what is an objective truth can resonate more deeply with me because of the particular form it has taken, for example by being part of my own ancestral past.

    I can appreciate the message of heroic transcendence found in the Bhagavad Gita for example because it is close to my own spiritual ideal and orientation, of what I consider an objective truth (albeit not the only possible path), but without necessarily becoming a self-identified Hindu for that reason. Me identifying as a Hindu would feel totally artificial and strange, and that's the way a lot of Indian Hindus would view it as well. If I had been born into an old Hindu family and brought up by devote Hindus I would have seen a very good reason to carry on that tradition as purely as possible. But seeing the context that I have been born into of religious atomization and the reduction of spirituality to largely a personal question (as long as cultural-marxism and liberalism are embraced as fundamental principles...), the organic traditional rootedness is lacking and I'm pretty much left over to seeking out the truth on my own, helped by what has been passed down from the past through various traditional vehicles, but with more attention focused on the inner essence, principles and spiritual realizations - that I deem to be objective truths - found in tradition that on outer forms.

    I was planning to write further, but it is now getting very late here in Europe, so I will have to come back to this debate later. Parts of your remaining questions have already been answered in my above writing (if not as elaborately and clearly as would be ideal, and some of it remains completely unanswered unfortunately), but perhaps I will get the chance to expand on it in a later post.
     
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  5. Plantagenet

    Plantagenet Heroic Member

    Thanks for the reply, I appreciate your answer. I think I understand what you are getting at here, and I feel similar (but then I also happen to feel the same way about medieval Christendom.) It's interesting that the world of Tolkien, which is sort of a synthesis of European pagan mythologies and worlds, albeit primarily of a Northern/Germanic hue, strikes a deep chord within me for these same reasons. The Norse and Celtic myths, the Arthurian cycle, Beowulf and other Anglo-Saxon themes, etc. all do the same. Though I will admit that I think I have a bit of an Eastern mind at times in that I "get" Persian, Indian, and Far Eastern cultures/traditions.

    I actually feel the same way quite often, which is why I have not yet found my tradition. There are problematic aspects, be they purely of a metaphysical/philosophical nature or cultural/aesthetic/political problems, that exist within every living tradition I am aware of, especially in our Dark Age. None of them are a real 100% fit for me, but then perhaps that is asking for too much. While I have not yet found a tradition, over the past few years of research and reflection I've narrowed it down a bit and come to terms that there is no perfect religious tradition. However, as they say, a path to God/Truth still needs to be a path. Sometimes I've considered just remaining as I am, then again most serious seekers and sages throughout history have emphasized the need to be part of a tradition and have the guidance of a real teacher. I once read somewhere a statement along the lines of "he who chooses himself as his master has chosen a fool."

    This is a good point and leads me to another point. I think what path you follow in this life might be dependent on what your goals are in this life. For example, if you goal is to live traditionally, with respect for those who came before you, with an ethical code, and essentially to be a good and honorable man, it probably doesn't matter what tradition you happen to be a part of, and I can see how attempting to be a neopagan along those lines would be a valid choice. However, if your goal in this life is gnosis, if your goal is to transform yourself on an ontological/spiritual level, if your goal is to know intuitively the secrets of what it means to be alive, and to conquer forever fear and death, I am not sure one can be so free with their choices. In order to achieve those goals, one needs a coherent theology or understanding (right view), one needs a living tradition, a fully fleshed-out methodology/praxis, and perhaps even more (such as an initatic chain or a realized master.) For those with such a goal, I am not sure neopaganism can provide that, though I could be wrong.

    I know what you mean. On an intellectual and philosophical level, being a Hindu would be no problem for me (by this of course I mean being a Vedantin, Shaivist, or some other darshan since one can only be born a Hindu and part of the caste system) but on a cultural, aesthetic, and racial level it presents problems since I am a Northern European man. Sometimes I find there is an inner struggle within me, where part of me holds onto my own culture and traditions, but another part of me says, "Your traditional culture is dead or dying, and you are a pilgrim to this corporeal world in any case, so you should just follow a non-Western path toward spiritual truth, since that's the ultimate goal of life anyway."

    Whatever the case, what you describe regarding atomization and lack of rootedness, and what I just described regarding my own inner struggle, certainly does speak volumes about the difficulties facing Western European men who are looking for tradition and Truth, especially those who aren't infected with a racial self-hatred that is so common today thanks to the prevailing Marxist cultural paradigm.
     
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  6. First, apologies for taking such a long time to answer. I've had to think about it for a bit; you ask some good questions, and the answers aren't obvious.

    No, I don't think it is currently enough to constitute a true spiritual path; to me paganism is more about the world-view than anything else. The spiritual aspects are not unimportant, and you are right about them being mostly absent unless one finds them oneself (which is a very challenging task). My ultimate hope is that this will change and that we will re-discover our pagan roots, probably not in the same form as they were before, but by returning to the same way of living and thinking as our ancestors it is my belief that we will eventually develop the same spiritual backbone as they had. When speaking of paganism as a mostly exoteric path, however, I don't think the true spiritual path is any more absent in paganism than it is in for example Christianity.

    This is true, but it is my belief that if a spiritual practise is really true, it will be found and practised and it will not really matter where it comes from. We do not know a lot about the esoteric practices of our Norse ancestors, but I think it is fairly safe to assume that they overlap with or are largely the same as many practices found in other places. Neoplatonism may serve as a good source here if it is properly adjusted and moulded to the traditions and mentality that still exists rather than the other way round.

    While that is true, I think the important thing is the heroic struggle. While the enemy may not kill you honourably, it will still be a warrior's death as long as one fought bravely.


    I think we have a fairly good grasp of the exoteric views that prevailed regarding the gods. The esoteric path is trickier, and I don't think knowledge of how they were viewed is useful unless we understand the underlying principles (for which it would probably be necessary to undergo initiation). I think the esoteric understanding of the gods can be redeveloped without losing too many important pieces; the idea is that the principles are True, and how unbroken the tradition is matters less in this context (in my understanding; I'd like to hear what others think regarding this).

    Hmm, none right off the bat. It was always my understanding that such was the case, otherwise I wouldn't be fighting for my folk and its traditions. There are some interesting books on blood, though. For example, I am planning to read Steiner's The Occult Significance of Blood soon - perhaps it contains some interesting tidbits regarding this.

    I'm not sure if I think that anything is inherently subversive - it's all about application and perspective (I'm one of those horrible relativists, please don't kill me). It is my view that the way Christianity has been applied in the Germanic sphere has been inherently subversive.


    That's an interesting question. The way I view it Christianity was never right for the Germanic countries, and its destruction was inevitable. It's only a pity that something better could not replace it immediately. Even though the Greeks are more conservative and traditional than us Scandinavians, they are facing the exact same problems. I think the reasons for why Swedes and Norwegians are some of the least conservative peoples are manifold, and I don't think it can really be attributed to our lack of a firm Christian tradition - I think our loss of traditional values has much more to do with the way our welfare society was constructed. While this may have been parallel to the decline of Christianity, I don't think it would have happened if a solid, pagan, Traditional world-view had been in place.



    My view is that the spatial factor is very important. I don't think there is any way around the fact that our Scandinavian culture is very particular; some like to look for similarities, which is very easy and can be taken overboard. I like to look for differences; what is particular is what is unique, and it is where we find our identity as opposed to that of others. Of course the actual practices and spiritual aspects of other cultures which share a common source with ours may be used as strong inspiration; but it is to me of utmost importance that particularity and the authentic tradition that still is remembered is preserved.
    I find Neoplatonism and similar systems to be very interesting, and I think they should certainly be used as sources and inspirations - but not as wholesale systems, at least not for me or anyone who wishes to embrace an ancestral pagan path.
     
    Last edited: 5 December 2013
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  7. Svíar

    Svíar Heroic Member Sustaining Member

    The questions you ask are not simple questions however there is a simple explanation for why any Scandinavian becomes a ''neo-pagan''.

    First of all what we know is that our ancestors beliefs are handed down through of course the eddas but also through folklore and myth.

    Number one reason for me being a pagan is to honor the ways of my ancestors and defend their memory and wisdom.

    It is a common misconception that paganism died in Scandinavia, sure there are gaps at various places but it is not a religion in the sence that it has to be so called ''bulletproof'' like christianity and can be proved false.

    Holy places of reverence exists, music exists, Wardruna is great example of music actually based on different runes and performed by musicians playing the instruments that would've been used at that time. There are nine noble virtues to submit to if you are a person of Asatro (Swedish name for the faith) both a warriors code and a normal set of advices, no commandments and both are based upon the High Speech of Odin which can be taken as seriously as the word of God in any other faith.

    Concerning the gods themselves there are many theories, take the most famous ones for example Odin or Thor. If you think about Odin and know something about our faith you'll soon think of certain traits describing him like wisdom, perserverence and knowledge and that he had to talking ravens gathering information for him. Or perhaps if you think of Thor traits like strength, courage, and might will perhaps strike you. This is one of the theories that the gods are mainly just sacred traits highly valued in Norse society.
    Then you have the actual god theory that they are comparable with a single God living in a city of gold in the sky.

    One other prominent theory is that the norse gods just as all the other gods of the world were acutally live extraterrestrial beings of flesh and blood coming here from the Orion nebula which is why there are buildings all over the world including Scandinavia aranged in the exact pattern of Orions belt handing down both the knowledge and technical advancements to mankind to which there are many supporting evidences all around the world which I would be happy to both present verbally and by pictures and videos.

    The bottom line is I can't prove the authenticity of paganism to you as much as I can't prove the existence of God to you.

    If you believe you believe. There's really nothing more too it.

    The main reason for the justification of spreading Asatro in Scandinavia is to hand down the wisdom and traditions as well as the belief and traditions of our forefathers so that it may never die and so that we may never loose our roots.
     
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  8. Plantagenet

    Plantagenet Heroic Member

    What about your Christian ancestors? In any case, the goal of a sacred tradition is to lead one to the Divine, to reach spiritual transformation and awakening, not honor the ways of ones ancestors (at least as the primary function, both can be part of a tradition of course.) A sincere truth seeker would accept truth wherever he found it to be; for instance, if one became convinced that Islam was the Truth, even if it meant the betrayal of his civilization it would be his duty to accept Islam, for man is a creature of God and a temporary pilgrim to this world before he is anything else such as a culture, ethnic group, race, etc. (not that the latter are unimportant of course.) Ones question should be: "Will this tradition, these practices, and these teachings lead me to transformation, experiential knowledge of truth, and liberation/salvation?" not "Is this tradition politically and ethnically expedient for me and suitable to me on a personal level, in tune with my likes and dislikes?"

    It died insofar as the rites weren't passed down, not all of the myths were passed down, the esoteric interpretations of the myths that we do have weren't passed down, the sort of religious praxis employed by the ancients wasn't passed down, a sacred artistic tradition wasn't passed down, no sort of pagan initiation was passed down, and so forth. What we have are scraps of mythology and cosmology, some notion of the values the ancients held, but no real sacred tradition that can lead man toward transformation and Truth.

    Yea, but if I believe in Mormonism or Scientology it doesn't mean that it is actually efficacious or true. If I decide to reconstruct and practice the religion of the ancient Egyptians, it doesn't mean that I am doing it in the authentic manner that they did or that it will have any sort of efficacy.
     
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  9. Svíar

    Svíar Heroic Member Sustaining Member

    Okay, Christianity was first of all germnicized to fit the barbarian Scandinavians in the first place and is not a religion of ours from the beginning, however I don't oppose it in anyway.

    But indeed do I believe that enlightenment and getting closer to the divine can be reached through our old faith.

    Are you Scandinavian? Because if you are you would know that what I told you is the truth.
    Rites did survive as in midwinter sacrifice and more which is practiced at the location of the old temple that stood in Uppsala every year. Why do you think that is done?
    Do you think I as a Scandinavian who was also raised with this faith and taught the traditions and the lore from my father am making it up?
    What you do not seem to understand is that as long as the norse people exist a.k.a Scandinavians exist, norse mythology exists. Now you may call it neo paganism if you want or something else but the so called ''fragments'' are more than enough to understand the old faith.
    Also proving it is more true than any other religion does not matter to me, I believe it and honor it cause it seems me right both politcally and ethnically as you express it and religiously.
    What I wrote is still a fact and we seem to be at a stand off concerning the survival of traditions and path to so called enlightenment.
    If you ever read the eddas or went to Scandinavia talking to the people here both old and young if you have not already you'd find out that it never died.
    Your belief in the authenticity of the traditions matters less and if I were to practice it ''authentically'' I'd sacrifice humans and animals which is pretty unethical today so yeah sure it is not a 100 % the same but maybe in certain cases that is for the better would you not say?
     
  10. Manu

    Manu Señor Member Sustaining Member
    1. Norden
    2. Knights of the Iron Cross

    This is not true at all. We are NOT wiccans. The old ways survived here as an actively practiced religion well into the 1800s in remote rural areas (such as Älvdalen, where even the swedish old norse tongue survives to this day and people were still writing with runes in the early 1900's), and even small children know a lot about the Norse gods. It grew incredibly rare, but it never died out completely. To say so is just a buzzword or common phrase that has been repeated over and over until some people take it for the truth.

    Old Swedish/Älvdalska:


    It is preserved disguised as "christian" rites, such as Christmas (Yule/Midvinterblot). We still call it "Jul", nothing in the name suggests anything about Christ, over here. Nor does the actual practice of it. We have an INCREDIBLY pagan thing before Yule, as well... We call it "Lucia", after the saint... But the origins are older than that, and it is basically a "Light during the darkest times" or "march of the Vanir" thing, not a christian rite at all.

    [​IMG]
    Lucia


    We still celebrate Yule in virtually the same way as before, sans the blood sacrifice. The feasting still goes on for many days and consists of virtually the same things as before. We still do blot (sacrifice), by placing out food for the household spirits etc. Norse people today may have changed the nomenclature, but our ways are virtually the same as ever when it comes to religion, culture and tradition as practiced by common folk. People today even still say "Tor drar fram" ("Thor harries about", or something like that) when it thunders, and a heap of other things. It is our culture, and it always has been. We still burn huge fires at the coming of spring, we still have the midsummer fertility festival and many others. The veneer is incredibly thin when it comes to attributing these festivities to coincide with saints, holy table cloths of Antioch and so forth. Nobody cares about the christian stuff, the forces at work are more primeval than that.

    [​IMG]
    Midsummer pole. It is not a cross, it is a phallic symbol that impregnates the soil and part of a fertility rite thousands of years old. Way older than Iehova or Christ.


    This is why I - as a former christian and still a fan of Jesus - can say that our gods have always been our gods, even if we use different names for them from time to time. They are tied to us by blood, just as our parents and relatives. They are the root of our race, and will so remain until the end of time. Many people, when addressing "the Father", are not even sure themselves if they mean Óðinn or Iehova. I for one prefer Óðinn, the Allfather.

    [​IMG]

    Old things survive here, even if it might not be widespread. It is, however, an unbroken tradition even if a few things were lost.



    Please, do not tell us what we have and do not have. This is ours, and it always will be.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 25 February 2014
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